176. Depression Hates a Moving Target - Nita Sweeney

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How can you go from coach potato at age 49 to an ultra marathoner?

How does physical movement help to counteract the symptoms of bipolar disorder?

Nita Sweeney is the award-winning author of the running and mental health memoir, Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running with My Dog Brought Me Back from the Brink. In this sweet and vulnerable conversation she shares about her battles with mental health and the surprising benefits she found from taking up a running practice. In addition to her running practice she has an active meditation practice, and she gives some great tips and insights into creating a balanced practice.

www.nitasweeney.com

00:00.00
karagoodwin
Hello and welcome to the meditation conversation I'm your host Kara Goodwin and today I have Nita Sweeney Nita is the award-winning author of the running and mental health memoir depression hates a moving target. How running with my dog brought me back from the brink. She's a mental health advocate an ultra marathoner and the founder of a group which supports well-being through meditation exercise and writing practice. So welcome Nita I'm so glad you're here today.

00:33.41
Nita Sweeney
Thank you so much I'm really excited for this conversation. Um I Yeah, just love talking about meditation. Yeah.

00:38.25
karagoodwin
Yeah, me too. That's awesome. So tell us how you went from a self-proclaimed couch potato at age 49 to an ultra marathoner.

00:49.60
Nita Sweeney
Oh well? Well I recommend going from a couch potato to an ultra marathoner I don't necessarily recommend what happened before that I um will say I have lived with.

00:59.22
karagoodwin
Okay, yeah.

01:04.76
Nita Sweeney
Um, depression the symptoms of bipolar disorder for most of my life. It was diagnosed when I was pretty young and then bipolar was diagnosed in my I would say thirty s and so I've tried all the meds I've been on Therapy had you know. A lot of things going for me meditation as a tool writing practice. But what I know now is I didn't have a physical component I didn't have the benefits of the movement of the body. So in 2007 I.

01:31.26
karagoodwin
And the.

01:41.50
Nita Sweeney
I would have been 46 or 47 7 loved ones and a loved one's cat died. It was a horrible year we call it. We our family refers to it as the year everyone died and um, that included my 24 year old niece her cat. My father-in-law.

01:45.71
karagoodwin
Oh my gosh. Um.

01:58.89
Nita Sweeney
And then in December my mother and it was just crazy and I was already struggling with depression. You know, kind of in and out it tends to be cyclical and but I don't know I got to a place where I just wasn't really sure it was worth it anymore I mean I've been suicidal before.

01:59.67
karagoodwin
Plus.

02:17.84
Nita Sweeney
And I got to that place where it just it felt like too much everything just felt like too much that grief everything. So I'm sitting on the sofa. There may have been bond Bonds I'm not sure. But um I saw the social media post of a high school friend who said she was same Age. At least as large as um as I was then which I was much larger than and she wrote call me crazy. But this running is getting to be fun and I thought we really need to do a wellness check but Run Egg fun. But that's where it started.

02:47.44
karagoodwin
Um, ah yeah.

02:53.99
Nita Sweeney
And her watching her and watching the change in her led me to check out the interval program and it said 60 seconds of jogging and I think if it had said 61 seconds of jogging or 60 seconds of running it was just something about that.

03:06.66
karagoodwin
F.

03:11.79
Nita Sweeney
60 seconds of jogging and said a lot more than that. but but I could hold on to and so when I talk to people a lot of times I say just find some tiny little thing you know with meditation the way I started with that which maybe you're going to get to this question. But.

03:12.66
karagoodwin
And yeah.

03:28.63
Nita Sweeney
My husband was the meditator he was my boyfriend at the time and I really liked him and he meditated and so one day he said you want to sit and I said I want to what and so he set the microwave timer for 5 minutes and his instruction was try not to fidget.

03:38.46
karagoodwin
And.

03:48.34
Nita Sweeney
And so it was very similar with running so I took my dog down in this hidden ravine where I thought no one could see me. Um I took a digital kitchen timer which I sometimes use for a meditation and down we went into this kind of hidden place. And I jog for 60 seconds so that's how it started and then a bunch of other things happened that continued to lead me in the direction of what I call running in public because I thought I was a private runner I was never going to leave the Ravin um, at that time. But again if I keep my mind right? where I'm at it's not a.

04:14.10
karagoodwin
And before left.

04:25.92
Nita Sweeney
Scary because anxiety That's the big thing with me is anxiety. So.

04:26.94
karagoodwin
Yeah I I used to run a lot too I as my meditation practice has gotten longer It's harder for me to keep up with the running. So I really have I have to admit I haven't been a runner for a couple of years maybe 3 years but um. I remember I would see because you know everybody is a beginner at at some point you know and and I had the same thing where it was like I I thought I hated running. You know it was like because I knew from gym class or whatever you know you don't know what you're doing you go full on and you're supposed to do like a mile.

04:57.81
Nita Sweeney
Right.

05:04.52
karagoodwin
And the end you know and it's like but you start really hard and by the time you're done. It's like I'm terrible at this and I hate it? Um, but at 1 point just very similar. It was like I if I could just run for a minute. Like even if I just got some jogg some jogging shoes running shoes and just ran for a minute and then walked until I felt fine and then jogged again for a minute like I could do that and and um so it's it's really funny. But i. So I remember being a beginner and then getting stronger and being able to run without pauses and things like that. But I remember seeing people who clearly were just starting and you could see they were embarrassed. You know I'd be running around in a park and see somebody who's like hardly jogging you know, barely even because there's just a little bit of a difference of the gate between fast walking and jogging and it's like and and it's. And you could feel their embarrassment but it's like no this is a mate like keep going like don't be embarrassed. This is you're it's amazing that you're out and you're you're trying this and you're you know I would just always try to like. Give them a smile or something because it can't you you can feel so self-conscious like like you're supposed to be a master at everything from the get-go just like you beautifully equated it to meditation. You know everybody feels like they can't meditate because. They don't have experience with it so they're like well I can't sit there and not fidget or you know keep my mind still for 5 minutes That's way too much and it's like well yeah, you build up to that or you you know you you try it and then you try it again and you keep getting better better. You know any time that you give to yourself to work on. You know your own inner peace is valuable even if it feels like you didn't master. It. You know it's like master takes time.

07:00.00
Nita Sweeney
Yes, Well, it's um, you know we can understand most people can understand the muscles of the arms. The legs even the heart but the mind is so similar the tools that we're developing in Meditation. It's just like building a muscle. It's something that has to be trained and so when I hear someone say oh my mind won't be still I always say well that's good. That means you're not Dead. You know it's yeah, That's what minds do minds generate thoughts and so in meditation and as you know I'm.

07:29.80
karagoodwin
But.

07:37.77
Nita Sweeney
Speaking to an expert here. Um, we create conditions that allow the mind to still on its own and we do little things to help it become calmer but it's very rarely completely still even I've been meditating now for 25 years and

07:49.88
karagoodwin
The.

07:55.34
Nita Sweeney
Yeah, and it depends on the day. What else is going on in my life. So yeah, it's ah but it's a thing that can be trained. It takes a little bit of effort but it's not. It's not the same kind of effort most of us are used to but it takes a little you know the right intention right? effort.

07:57.22
karagoodwin
Oh yes, hold on. Yeah.

08:10.60
karagoodwin
Right? Yeah, absolutely so that that gets us to your first your first step for pun into running. Um. Now when we start talking about ultra marathons to me, you're getting into mastery. You know that's like we're we're beyond like couch to five k at that point. So so how did what was like the tipping point like how how did that go that you went from.

08:34.62
Nita Sweeney
Ah, yes.

08:42.92
karagoodwin
You know, 60 seconds to ultra marathon.

08:44.44
Nita Sweeney
Well, it started first I blanked because 10 years went by um, but um, um, but it started with my sister who it was her daughter. Her only childhood died of cancer during that bad year.

08:59.13
karagoodwin
How I work.

09:02.89
Nita Sweeney
And I made the mistake of telling her I was running I was joke about that. But that's kind of how it happened because I didn't tell anybody for a while I would do it during the week when my husband was at work and and she said there's this 5 k we're raising money for a research for the cancer that Jamie Died from

09:04.37
karagoodwin
Ask.

09:22.44
Nita Sweeney
And that was when I said oh no no I'm a private runner I don't run in public and then it you know it took me a while to kind of not too long, but ah to get over myself and realize well embarrassment is not going to kill me and cancer did kill Jamie. So um I went to this race.

09:24.60
karagoodwin
The first.

09:41.88
Nita Sweeney
And there were people of all ages all sizes in the fancy spandex in the pink sweatpants that I had started out in you know I mean everything it just blew open all my preconceptions about what running is and I I got hooked on the Energy. Of being in community with runners I started um, participating in some online groups before that. But that's different. You're hiding behind it wasn't There wasn't Video. We were hiding behind icons and you know user names and things like that and they were very helpful but.

10:15.66
karagoodwin
Like don't.

10:20.50
Nita Sweeney
But to actually be in person and I'm I'm not a prettytroverted person but in running you know you you're kind of running maybe beside somebody or there's somebody in front of you behind you and I just really like that and then be able to do something for a charity help too. So. Eventually I just wanted to run longer distances because I loved it so much and so the big goal was a half marathon that was the kind of next goal and I realized I needed a group I needed more structure. Um, again, it's so weird because I'm such an introvert but I needed the structure.

10:44.37
karagoodwin
Thessuming.

10:56.34
Nita Sweeney
And I knew we had a big group here in town that was really well organized and and what was so funny was because I was that I didn't know that people that I actually knew were members of it people I didn't know they even ran because we hadn't talked about it because it you know it's like it's not on your radar until it's on your radar and then it's everywhere I call it. The.

11:07.89
karagoodwin
Um, really.

11:16.22
Nita Sweeney
Powder blue pinto complex. You know you'd go and you drive your your unique powder blue pinto off the lot and all of a sudden this unique car you see 20 on the way home. So that's way that's the way this worked for me and so after I ran that half marathon. It.

11:22.72
karagoodwin
And yes.

11:33.46
Nita Sweeney
Sort of you're just in the club and so you start doing what everybody else is doing and I don't know a year I think I did two half marathons and then everybody suddenly in the group was training for the full and you know so well. And yeah I mean and I I talk to people should I do this is this crazy and the thing that is in. My first book. The depression hates a moving target is the fact that I have some congenital I have ah basically the bones of my left ankle are too close together and they could have fixed it when I was a kid but it's the kind of thing that until you you often? don't even know because I didn't play any sports. Was in marching band but it wasn't the kind of thing where they would have noticed it I rode horses things like that and so I had 1 doctor tell me not to run and he's he's not He's sort of a um I don't know but there's a villain in this story.

12:24.44
karagoodwin
Um.

12:26.70
Nita Sweeney
Ah, fine guy I'm sure he's fine and I'm sure that that from his professional opinion. That's what should have happened. They should haveuse my ankle I shouldn't have rent but there were other people around me other medical professionals and including doctors saying Well What if you just take it easy What if you just you know and so I kept going and so I ran the marathon and then. This group. Um I'm sorry. But thank you.

12:46.90
karagoodwin
We But the thing is you can't just go like I ran the marathon I mean that's a huge accomplishment like it's It's so far I've I've done some half marathons and I have never even entertained the idea of doing a marathon because it's so it's so much.

13:03.10
Nita Sweeney
Um, yeah, so it's ah yes, it is believe.

13:05.66
karagoodwin
Commitment. My husband did the London Marathon and it was the commitment for the whole family you know because the training that's required so we had to like all work around all the training. But um.

13:15.29
Nita Sweeney
Well, let me back up. Let me back up and say I have the most amazing husband in the world I don't have children and because of my mental health issues I haven't had a day job for many many years and so I you know I'm I'm privileged I am able to do that. But I also know people who have jobs and children and their families say you're much better when you're training for a marathon. Go sign up, you know so it it just depends. But for me, it was yeah okay.

13:40.87
karagoodwin
Um, yeah, yeah, but that's an amazing accomplishment just the marathon you don't even have to put the ultra in front of it. That's incredible and you didn't even start running until you were 49 that's like it's anoising.

13:52.80
Nita Sweeney
Yes, yes, and I'm I mean I run slowly and I don't apologize so I'm very careful to check the cutoff times for a raise before I sign up because I don't want anybody you know I don't want. There can be a whole argument about. Didn't wait around for me. Well the cutoff time was 6 hours and you came in at 6 you know whatever? Um, so I'm very careful about that. But I had the support of my family I had the support of this group and this group it's marathoner and training that is through the local fleet feed store when we all show up. There's I mean.

14:11.21
karagoodwin
Yeah.

14:28.37
Nita Sweeney
Time I think there would be a thousand of us if we all all the pace groups showed up at the same place at the same time so in my pace group alone the group I run with there's you know 30 to 50 people and so some people in that group there were I think 5 or 6 of us that were training for it in my pace group. But there were 200 other people also training for the race at different speeds. You know different paces so I never felt alone and there's always that young I'm kind of full of these little ah 1 ne-off jokes. But when you hang around in a barbers shop eventually, you're going to get a haircut.

15:05.12
karagoodwin
When.

15:06.99
Nita Sweeney
And so if you hang around with a bunch of people who just run marathons for fun eventually, you're going to run a marathon and so that's how it morphed from marathon to ultra is I changed pace groups because I got a little slower and also actually it was more because I wanted to try the run walk that um Jeff Galloway Run Walk run

15:22.72
karagoodwin
Then.

15:26.95
Nita Sweeney
Kind of thing where you um, you said ah most people have like a timer on their their watch or you have a little timer you put on your clothes and my my sweet spot is thirty thirty so I run for 30 seconds walk for 30 seconds and because you can always skip one and run for one run for you know, walk. Whatever. And so when I went into the run walk group. There was a group of them that did this one particular ultra which a full is 26.2 and ah ultra is anything above is 26.3 or above. So the ultra that I did is 31 and change which I know that's no small distance but there's actually not that much difference between once you've done a marathon There's not It's like five more miles. You know I mean it's and I mean it sounds crazy. But when you think of it that way. It doesn't feel as big plus.

16:14.30
karagoodwin
Yeah, connected to both.

16:21.83
Nita Sweeney
And I'm not I'm not saying this to diminish my accomplishments but to try to make this accessible for people this particular ultra you have 24 hours to do thirty one miles and it's a five mile loop and it's flat.

16:31.55
karagoodwin
Oh.

16:38.33
Nita Sweeney
Now it's in the summer in central ohio so it's also hot but it's in the woods and the support is amazing. So in some weird ways. The ultra does not feel I mean it's physically as difficult but mentally it's not quite as difficult because you're always back. At the watert stop. You're always back at the bathroom. You're always back at your campsite people take naps I mean it's mind blowing so it's a whole different It's whereas a marathon. You know you start and you go until you're done. There's no stopping. There's not and you can stop the bathroom obviously in water and things like that. But there's it's.

17:03.12
karagoodwin
Oh yeah.

17:16.75
Nita Sweeney
The whole um feeling is much more high stakes high pressure competitive whereas I mean the ultures are competitive too. There's plenty of people that want to win them. But for me, it was just like a very long walk in the woods now I will say that Yeah, it's different.

17:23.71
karagoodwin
Right.

17:35.89
Nita Sweeney
I will say though that I am very very glad that I learned to meditate and had all the years of meditation because that actually answers the question you asked before you said well I've done a half marathon but you know a full marathon so much longer, you're out there so much longer while you meditate while you're running.

17:53.22
karagoodwin
Well.

17:55.80
Nita Sweeney
I Mean that's what I do and that's um that my friends joke that I have an infinite capacity for bored and my high in the winterer here. It gets icy it gets icy here and so I'll go to the there's an indoor track here that I did when I was training for my third full I think we had to do.

18:02.61
karagoodwin
Um.

18:15.70
Nita Sweeney
212 laps on this track. It's like 10 laps a mile. We were doing it was. It's like 10 point two five or something like that lapse from out so with some off number but it was over more than 200 laps because we needed 20 miles or we needed twenty two miles to get our log training in and so I you know I was out there. By myself part of the time but then people would come and join me for four miles and then they'd go home and then somebody else would come for five miles whatever and do the laps. But but yeah I can just kind of go around and circles all day I run in my house if I get I have like I said I have anxiety and so sometimes I get a little bit of I call it a little bit.

18:46.40
karagoodwin
Oh.

18:52.15
Nita Sweeney
Get agoraphobic where I have trouble leaving my house and especially it turns on the weather too if it's icy and I'll just jog around my house I mean I've done I think the the max I've done is twelve miles which was really hard I had to do 6 upstairs and 6 in the basement because it was just but that's I just you know I do that. So.

19:04.10
karagoodwin
Oh Wow Um, yeah, that's great I wanted to talk about the mental health like what? Ah what impact has running had on your mental health because of course your book is talking about.

19:09.94
Nita Sweeney
Yeah.

19:22.37
karagoodwin
Basically outrunning depression. You know and and how running has affected your mental health. So can you can you talk a little bit about that. How it's improved things.

19:30.61
Nita Sweeney
Absolutely the energy level is probably the biggest thing that I noticed that just the largest thing overall and it's the first thing that I noticed other people started noticing little things with my mood me being a little more happy. Joking around a little more 1 friend asked me if I got a haircut I mean they didn't know what was going on but they because I hadn't told anybody and so the energy level is probably the biggest thing I remember we we used to. We always go to well. Mr. 1.

19:51.39
karagoodwin
Now.

20:05.00
Nita Sweeney
Ohio State University Football Game every year and it's a big deal. You track you like so the there you go the Ohio State University yeah at the yeah the I I yes right right? It is the yoio first yeah I'm a third I'm yeah oh you know? yeah um um yeah I'm a third.

20:05.99
karagoodwin
The Ohio state that always makes me laugh when the the football players do yeah I'm an Indiana so we're neighbors and.

20:24.86
Nita Sweeney
Third generation. but I but I usually when we would go before I took up running. It was such a big deal just lugging everything getting from the you know car to the stadium climbing the bleachers. It was just a huge seal and we went probably. Know it would have been maybe six months after I started running and I'd done my first five k I think by then and I realized that it wasn't a big deal I mean it was a long walk but it was not a big deal at all and it wasn't just the distance. It was the I was physically stronger I was just stronger so that stamina.

20:57.71
karagoodwin
We are for the.

21:03.31
Nita Sweeney
Has been huge and that has impacted my writing too because writing takes especially book length works takes a stamina and focus that even with meditation I really didn't have so my mood of course is the big thing to besides the Stamina is that I. Just in general tend to be more positive person I think I will always have a little bit of a melancholy flair and when people read the book. They'll see that that I'm I'm very much a realist So I don't say that um people always say that I Outran depression and in some ways I did I would what I Outran was suicide.

21:38.42
karagoodwin
Stuff and.

21:40.36
Nita Sweeney
That's what I out ran because I was suicidal and um, but you know I still have my days where it's just kind of blue and running helps a ton but I don't know that anything's just going to ever flip a switch and me not to have to deal with that. But it's so much Better. There's the energy the mood. Um the community has allowed me to be just more involved in my life because I felt I had a kind of small I'm in recovery too and I had a ah you know I had a ah, pretty nice, recovery community. Um, but to be out with. With runners. But also when you're dealing with charity events and now book signings and things I'm I'm out you know, among all kinds of people doing all kinds of things and that would have terrified me before that was I was very careful about my choices and I mean I'm still a little bit careful but it just has given me a freedom. To do things that I really didn't think I could and that's that's just been wonderful and I yeah I just I just feel more alive I mean I there were days when even and when the sky was blue I would look out and all I would see was gray.

22:35.31
karagoodwin
But is a that's.

22:50.35
Nita Sweeney
And now those days are very few and far between I still have them writing the book sort of up the stakes with everything because I wasn't used to dealing with professionals at that level and you know talking to someone like you all about ah is part of the process. And that would have terrified me and now I Just you know, just feel like okay I can go in and do that So It's amazing how it just sort of bleeds in there. There isn't any part of my life that it has not positively impacted.

23:24.50
karagoodwin
That's beautiful I mean there's There's so much there because you talk about um the energy and you know with meditation Energy. You know energy is energy but it takes a little bit of a. Different lens. You know we can look at energy from a different lens when we're talking about meditation when you start talking about it from like a metaphysical standpoint because from a physical perspective. We often think about energy as like I'm not so sleepy you know like from a physical perspective. A lot of times. That's what people how they notice that they have more energy. It's like oh I'm not as tired or fatigued as I normally am when we start crossing over into Meditation E kind of understanding of of Energy. It's like everything is energy and so it's really interesting to think about like. Why that is or like how did that come in and if we consider ourselves as like that we are energy but we are these like streams of energy and our bodies are these manifestations of something so much bigger that we are. And so it's like through things like meditation but also taking care of your physical body and making choices that that help to bring that energy in because it's so often we're kind of cut off.

24:56.10
Nita Sweeney
Test but like.

24:57.77
karagoodwin
You know in modern times. Yeah, we're we're in the the mind and we're not tapping into that stream of energy with the um profundity that we could you know that that really helps to to get us really feeling connected. And so many things that you've said I mean you've touched on connection. You've touched on the energy. You've touched on how it it affects your mentality and and you know so many in your clarity or creativity. You know all these things that are being fed by that that energy. But it's like this way to. Break through the blockages that modern living can can create that are so easy. They just like sneak in over time and before we know it like it's really hard to even cope. It's hard to put one foot in front of the other. It's hard to step out the door. Um. But there are so many different ways that we can break that open and we can like kind of clear those pathways in so that more of that bigger stream of energy that we are can come in and infiltrate and express through these bodies. So. It's so important for us to think about the physical body too because um, sometimes people like if they're on like ah, a spiritual discovery path. You know they may there. There can be a tendency even to reject the body and to feel like okay I've got to I am going to transcend the body. The body is a ah barrier and I've got to get be I've got to get past the body I don't care about the body I'm not going to take care of it I don't want to you know because it's like I'm not I'm spiritual I'm not superficial I don't want to take you know I'm not going to even pay attention to that. But it's like well actually we're here having a spear having. Having a spiritual experience in a human body and we want to take care of that because then it it allows us to connect with it. Um, with greater ease and it it can express through us so much easier when we are taking care of that physical vessel. So. It's it's really It's really beautiful and inspiring to hear about your journey and how you've not only the steps that you took to get to the ultra marathon. Um I mean even just the five k is is. A huge accomplishment. Um, but then you know hearing about the the knock on effects and even just that brightness that was that was bursting through or your friend was like did you get your hair cat like something's different I'm perceiving.

27:43.40
karagoodwin
Something is like radiating here but I don't know what it is that your hair you know.

27:48.55
Nita Sweeney
Ah, yes, yes, it was very funny. Um, and 1 friend who knew me really well said. Did you change therapists and no I just had energy I I like to say and I think this is true. Whether people struggle with mental health issues or not that we're fighting inertia and so. The energy that you're talking about it. It isn't in our I mean there is energy in our mind but it's really generated in the body. That's the that's you know that's the that's the place that it it comes from I also wanted to mention the type of meditation that I do. It's insight meditation or vipassana is what it's. Um, that's the the old word. You'd say vipassana but the body is the object that we use and so everything becomes an opportunity whether it's a glorious day or a rain you know rainstorm that is feeling making your joints at my age. I.

28:26.95
karagoodwin
But I know but.

28:44.84
Nita Sweeney
My my joints sometimes feel crappy when it rains So All of that is an opportunity. Whatever you feel in the body and all the thoughts that you have are an opportunity to practice. But it's ah it takes a mind Shift. It takes a little bit of a different way of thinking. In order to see everything as an opportunity and I don't mean that in a glib way because I've been through some stuff and I know it's hard. It is hard. But yeah I know that also the meditation practice while the running was sort of the missing piece. Meditation practice has always been a foundation because even when things were so bad after after my mother died it was just everything was just black I mean it was just bad and and I did become suicidal and yet I was also able to notice the suicidal thoughts Rise. Do their little dance pass away and that's what I do when I run a lot of times, especially when you get to a distance where at some point things hurt. They just do if you keep running long enough even if you take care of everything. Do it all Perfectly. Do all your stretches at some point things are gonna hurt. And so that becomes my object to meditation as long as I know I'm not permanently injuring myself. You know you don't want to do that. That's um, let's you know, be cautious here but but that ability to use the body the thoughts and the body sensations as um, the tools.

30:00.40
karagoodwin
Right? vi.

30:15.82
Nita Sweeney
Which which to meditate and you know some people call it a spiritual experience some people call it being in the moment that's more my spin is about staying in the moment because that's where the power is. That's where that's the only reality actually is right here in this moment whether it's if you're gonna have a spiritual experience.

30:25.27
karagoodwin
And when.

30:34.45
karagoodwin
And right so.

30:34.57
Nita Sweeney
You're not going to have it tomorrow and you didn't have it yesterday I mean maybe you did but its now is the opportunity to do whatever that is with the practice and so the um I think that that's the thing I realized with the the probably most poignant moment was when I was. About three quarters of a mile from finishing that ultra and I was my feet hurt bad, especially my left foot. My one toe just hurt so bad and it had been hurting for a while and I you know did all the things that changed shoes I changed stocks I did all the things I knew to do. And I wanted to zone out I started singing songs to myself I told myself jokes like and jokes I know but I still like my jokes and but I did all the things to own hat and then I remembered nita you are never going to be three quarters of a mile from your first ultra marathon ever again and it just.

31:18.49
karagoodwin
Yeah.

31:33.15
Nita Sweeney
It just dropped me in and then my longtime teacher is a man named shins and young and I remember him talking about instead of escaping from the pain escaping into the pain and so I just turned my full focus onto that foot and let it just completely consume me not in a bad way. But in a curious way. What does this feel like what is going on with my foot not thinking about it. But you know is it hot is it cold is it pulsing is it solid is it all that kind of thing and it's still heard but I wasn't suffering whereas before when I was trying to push against it. Trying to make it go away trying to distract myself. There was a lot of suffering. Ah yeah, know that's the word I use as a meditation word too around it and not bliss not Bliss I won't say that I went off in some sparkly land. No my foot hurt but I also fully experienced.

32:15.65
karagoodwin
Yeah.

32:28.60
Nita Sweeney
That last three quarter mile. It's just etched in my memory I can almost tell you I mean I'm looking forward to going back this year because I can almost tell you every tree every post every you know course the camp site will be a little different because the tens will be in different places but everything on that way back I have a very vivid memory. Of being very present. So so that's but but the the whole thing about um, um, about not wanting to be in the body I mean that may work for some people that hasn't worked for me and so I'm very I'm very careful not to to say oh that's the wrong way.

32:48.11
karagoodwin
That's beautiful. Yeah.

33:06.41
Nita Sweeney
But I think they're missing a tool I think they're missing an opportunity that can bring joy in a I mean that it's like oh you're such a masochist. You're talking about getting joy through pain. Well yeah, because there's gonna come a day when we can't escape it I mean we'll all face that and um.

33:20.75
karagoodwin
So.

33:25.17
Nita Sweeney
Here I go on my a little morbid need to trip. But really, there's gonna be a day where you're goingnna have pain that you can't whether it's emotional pain or whether it's physical pain. Um, something's goingnna happen. That's gonna be big enough that whatever skills you've had. They're not going to work to allow you to escape them and so it that always take says.

33:25.71
karagoodwin
When I.

33:44.32
Nita Sweeney
Something like I don't know exactly how he says basis. At some point you're going to have to jump out of a plane and this is a build your own parachute kind of course. So we suggest you start building the parachute before you get in the plane and and so I really like that The idea that you know you're building this over time.

33:54.77
karagoodwin
Oh that's what something remember.

34:01.38
Nita Sweeney
Not in a morbid way because there's so much joy along the way. There's so much you know benefit and just so many things. Um I could go on and on. But but yeah, so sort. Let's start. Let's admit that parachute now.

34:07.55
karagoodwin
Yeah, so. Yeah I Love that and I often talk about that as well with pain and the noticing you know the physical especially with physical pain but any kind of pain emotional pain I mean you've talked about the temporal Nature. Of Pain. That's one one aspect to it is that it's never permanent and when we're in Pain. It feels like this this is it now I'm just going to always be like this is what I am you know and it's like we we have a quick we quickly forget you know that that emotions pass and. And physical pain passes. But that curiosity is is really provocative too and and a really interesting tool because we do have such a tendency to to distract ourselves to not want to see it. Um. And to just fear it and feel like we don't want to feed it and so and there seems to be this this fear that if we see it if we really look at it if we really give an attention that it's gonna we're gonna feed it and it's gonna get worse. And I have found just like you're saying it. It might not necessarily dissolve it completely depending on the level that you're dealing with but so often it's like we just ascribe pain to a sensation and it's like well Sometimes. It's not pain. It's ah it's a temperature change. It's hot. It's Cold. It's a vibration. It's It's a um, ah feels more like you. You said, kind of a solid thing like it just feels like a a lump or um and it's like but we. Want to mask it either by distracting you know going on to social media or buying something or you know we all have different ways that we don't want to see it eating Yes, Um, but but being courageous and really going all in. Um, I Just wrote a paper on this yesterday actually so it's really funny that you you bring it up because it was about like really bringing all of your awareness to an injury or a trauma or a wound. Um.

36:34.20
karagoodwin
And really seeing it and really letting it be processed in that way and how that helps to heal much. It's rapid. It's the healing that comes from that is so rapid. So um, yeah, it's really beautiful I Love that.

36:49.52
Nita Sweeney
Yeah I think I mean you probably have done the research but I know that there's a there been studies about what happens when we pay attention to a thing and if you've done any kind of meditation where you've tried to um speak for myself. Sorry. When I do meditation where a pain arises and I try to think of them as unpleasant, pleasant and neutral. So an unpleasant sensation arises in my knee. Let's say when I shift my focus it starts changing when I first feel it. It may feel like this solid like a rock. Not whatever, solid thing and then we shift our focus and there's been research that says that the awareness actually has an impact on the sensation on our experience. So It's on Consciousness essentially and so.

37:39.82
karagoodwin
Myself such right.

37:43.23
Nita Sweeney
I Think that that's ah again, it's an opportunity people miss because it's scary. You know we don't want to feel pain. Nobody wants to feel pain I understand that but it's also inevitable and so that's you know that's kind of the need to message and I do think that there have been um I don't know.

37:46.38
karagoodwin
Yeah.

37:52.90
karagoodwin
So yes.

38:02.60
Nita Sweeney
Communities kind of swept away with the sort of no bad vibes kind of thing which I understand the intention um is good and the desire is to bring happiness and joy and relief for people and I also know that those kinds of things.

38:07.14
karagoodwin
What's.

38:20.57
Nita Sweeney
Can in the end become dangerous because you're not in touch with reality which is that there is suffering. There is pain. There is pleasantness. There is neutralness and so having a skill set where you can deal with the days where there are no bad vibes but also deal with the days when the bad. The. Lives are so bad that you can't know bad vibes. It. You know it doesn't work um to me that's a full toolkit and that's what I want I want the hammer I want the screwdriver I want the drill I want you know so I want all the tools at my disposal and the discernment the discretion to be able to use the 1.

38:41.17
karagoodwin
Yeah, and with that. Choice.

38:58.85
Nita Sweeney
That's right for the situation and some days I'll you know try to pound the nail with the the back of the screwdriver and realized oh my God This isn't working and it sort of feels like that's what's happening with this I don't know I I don't want to point you know again I'm very careful not to disparage anything but I've tried so many different things.

39:02.36
karagoodwin
Screw right? yeah.

39:17.89
Nita Sweeney
And this is the only thing where I felt along. You know this type of meditation where I felt a long lasting benefit that sticks That's not and that it sticks off the cushion you know and I do studying practice but I can meditate when I run and.

39:28.87
karagoodwin
That.

39:36.00
Nita Sweeney
That's actually what my next book's going to be about is how to meditate while you do any kind of movement form because we hear in meditation. There's a lot of talk about posture about the need for a particular well that just the way that posture impacts. Um, your mind state and it does totally and so ah.

39:39.69
karagoodwin
You know, call.

39:47.69
karagoodwin
The.

39:54.17
Nita Sweeney
So my suggestion is that you can transfer the awareness and the the skills of attention Calm Concentration clarity. You can transfer those skills into movement as well and it just becomes the posture your movement becomes the posture and then we talk I talk a little bit in that book about the importance of.

40:03.86
karagoodwin
It is what? yeah.

40:13.85
Nita Sweeney
Having um, good form for whatever the movement is you know so that if you focus on that. Ah, that will also help with the meditation. It's sort of a again we have to bring the body in we can't just do the head thing the mind thing to any movement we have to bring the body in.

40:17.67
karagoodwin
I Can just.

40:27.74
karagoodwin
Right? That's beautiful. Well how can people find out more about you.

40:32.40
Nita Sweeney
To it too so brings it all. Thank you? Oh my goodness you can go to Needas Sweeney Dot Com N I T A S W E E N E Y Dot Com and I have a I have links at the top There's a link to my newsletter which I send out. Tried to send it out twice a month and I only try to sell something you know a couple times a year I try really try not to sell a lot except my books I do want you buy my books but but yeah http://nehiswney.com is probably the best place. There's also a free book called three ways to heal your mind a little ebook that. If you want that that'll you'll wind up on my newsletter too. It's you know, easy to and subscribe and then I'm ah on all the social media channels I have a Facebook group called mind mood and movement which is as you said it's sort of my trifecta. It's ah writing practice. For I kind of it's kind of mind and mood and then meditation again for mind and move and then movement which is body mind and so it's sort of all 3 and I always feel like I am sitting on a 3 legged stool and if I don't have any 1 of those 3 going pretty strong. The stool will fall over so that's ah, that's kind of my that's that's probably the place I am the most but but the newsletter is probably the best place to find because that's where everybody gets on the newsletter you get all the info first and you get the cover reveal you get you know, kind of that's my special in crowd as the newsletter people. So.

42:02.55
karagoodwin
Oh awesome, Wonderful I'll have the link to your site on in the show notes. So that people can get that. So.

42:05.52
Nita Sweeney
Would love for you to hop on that.

42:10.78
Nita Sweeney
Thank you! That's great. Thank you so much.

42:16.19
karagoodwin
Yeah, thank you so much for being here and I've really enjoyed learning about your journey. It's very inspiring and thank you for everything that you're doing and for your time today.

42:26.50
Nita Sweeney
Well thank you for your work too. This is very important stuff and I really appreciate people who are on this path a lot to thank you for the opportunity to be here.

42:33.61
karagoodwin
Wonderful. Thank you so much.

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